Curse

The Ernada · Apr 03, 2007, 04:11 AM // 04:11

Again, you're trying to refute arguments that no one has made and using extreme exaggerations. Seems like most everyone on the other side of this issue is doing this except for Lyra and a couple others.

No one is asking for "everything on a silver platter" No, we are not "lazy", in fact we want access to unlocked skills so we can play and experiment more. Is that lazyness? No, we are not farmers "looking to try out the latest farming builds" And no we don't want to play Tetris.

Any other garbage arguments you want to throw out there?

lyra_song · Apr 03, 2007, 04:54 AM // 04:54

I guess what i wanna hear is an argument to support the OP that doesn't boil down to "I want ____ " or "I don't want ____ ".

The Ernada · Apr 03, 2007, 05:21 AM // 05:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I guess what i wanna hear is an argument to support the OP that doesn't boil down to "I want ____ " or "I don't want ____ ".

And what suggestion doesnt boil down to those two things?

mafia cyborg · Apr 03, 2007, 05:53 AM // 05:53

if it was for me i would have the choice of immediately creatin a level20 pve char with all skills and elite skills available.
i dont actually know anyone who enjoys levellin up a char....maybe the first time....maybe even the 2nd time.....but then it gets just painful and a waste of time.
lets all be masochists and keep it as its is.....THX

cellardweller · Apr 03, 2007, 06:00 AM // 06:00

How about this Lyra - It is reasonable to expect that certain amounts of game content is achievable by someone playing the game normally (ie going out and questing, doing missions etc). In order to be able to play a decent amount of styles, a benchmark of all primaries +20 secondary skills would be appropriate.

This would cost (130+20*9)*10 = 3100 skill points and 3100 plat (ignoring the price ramp and skill quests) - I don't think that anyone would argue that 3100 plat is within the reach of someone playing normally.

zwei2stein · Apr 03, 2007, 06:06 AM // 06:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

So the point isn't that you don't want to put time in? Make it easier? Sounds good don't it. But tell me, for every pro argument, take out skills and put in runes/insignias/inscription. Works doesn't it? SO if you did this for skills, why shouldn't you do it for everything else?

Don't just look at the short term, cause if this gets in, how long before people bring this up for runes/mods/weapon skins/etc? Then what? Character creation becomes like pvp? How long do you think pve will last after they make pve account based rather than character based? And you get all unlocks. Can you say that after you've completed the campaign once and done all the leftover quests, that you're doing anything except getting skills and items? Or money to get skills and items. Give a player all that, and he'll be happy. Sure. But after, when he's logged into his pve character and there's nothing left to do? What then? Keeping people coming back to kill monsters so they can trick out their character's is all that's left in pve. Take that out and you may as well just shut down pve. Can you say that I'm wrong on that?

You are doing Strawman again.

Besides, you hae to put considerate work to unlocking in first place. skills, noone asked this to be connected with UAS either.

Nexus Icon · Apr 03, 2007, 06:39 AM // 06:39

I wholeheartedly agree with the premise.
If there's one thing that prevents me from playing all of the classes, it's the knowledge that I'd have to grind three campaigns all over again to get the same level of flexibility I have on my favoured characters. The prospect of doing this another x times over is preventatively tedious.
And as for PvP, there's just no point me taking my PvE character into PvP anymore. There's no way they can be as flexible as a PvP toon, and to be honest, if I can't effectively PvP with characters I've spent years developing, well, that's a major turn-off.

One of the points I see the opposition arguing is that this would kill the PvE game off; that if you had access to all skills immediately, you'd get bored and would no longer want to play the old content.

And this is just completely and utterly wrong.

My most played character is my warrior, who has all of the warrior skills and is an Elite Skill Hunter to boot.
And where will you find him?
Most likely, you'll find him in the Crystal Desert playing the ascension trial missions over and over again, just because I love them.
I don't get any great rewards for playing here. Most players don't realise that they've just been helped (and I don't tell them

). The gold I get from playing here is almost non-existent. But I always end up coming back here.

Why?

This character has an almost infinite amount of build variations available to him. And experimenting with potential builds in an area like this never gets boring.
If my other characters had the same level of flexibility that my warrior had, hell, I'd be spoiled for choice!
I may actually play my dervish / ritualist / paragon / elementalist if it were this enjoyable to do so.
As it stands, it would be a chore to get these characters to the same level of flexibility, and I don't play games to work. Those of you who think that to have fun, you should have to work mindlessly for it first, well, you've got some screwed-up priorities right there.
That may very well be the case in real life, but for the love of Mike, this is a GAME, and in games you shouldn't have to emulate your daily work-related drudgery. Games are there to make life that little bit more enjoyable.

I'm guessing that a lot of the people arguing against this don't have a career, or if so, haven't been working for long.
When you've been in work for a few years, well, then maybe you'll understand why people want to come home and play games, and why they want those games to be fun.
Sorry to sound patronising, but it's pretty much the only reason I can see people arguing against this.
That and internet willy-waving, but those people are playing the wrong game in the first place.
WoW is the place for willy-wavers.

cyberjanet · Apr 03, 2007, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

You might as well just make pve into a movie, the inbetween battles are non events, so you really just sit there and watch the cutscenes.

ROFLMAO! This is well thought-out and witty riposte. I guess that's why they invented television, to cut out the tedium of the intermediate game-play.

Rakeman · Apr 03, 2007, 07:14 AM // 07:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus Icon

I wholeheartedly agree with the premise.
If there's one thing that prevents me from playing all of the classes, it's the knowledge that I'd have to grind three campaigns all over again to get the same level of flexibility I have on my favoured characters. The prospect of doing this another x times over is preventatively tedious.
And as for PvP, there's just no point me taking my PvE character into PvP anymore. There's no way they can be as flexible as a PvP toon, and to be honest, if I can't effectively PvP with characters I've spent years developing, well, that's a major turn-off.

One of the points I see the opposition arguing is that this would kill the PvE game off; that if you had access to all skills immediately, you'd get bored and would no longer want to play the old content.

And this is just completely and utterly wrong.

My most played character is my warrior, who has all of the warrior skills and is an Elite Skill Hunter to boot.
And where will you find him?
Most likely, you'll find him in the Crystal Desert playing the ascension trial missions over and over again, just because I love them.
I don't get any great rewards for playing here. Most players don't realise that they've just been helped (and I don't tell them

). The gold I get from playing here is almost non-existent. But I always end up coming back here.

Why?

This character has an almost infinite amount of build variations available to him. And experimenting with potential builds in an area like this never gets boring.
If my other characters had the same level of flexibility that my warrior had, hell, I'd be spoiled for choice!
I may actually play my dervish / ritualist / paragon / elementalist if it were this enjoyable to do so.
As it stands, it would be a chore to get these characters to the same level of flexibility, and I don't play games to work. Those of you who think that to have fun, you should have to work mindlessly for it first, well, you've got some screwed-up priorities right there.
That may very well be the case in real life, but for the love of Mike, this is a GAME, and in games you shouldn't have to emulate your daily work-related drudgery. Games are there to make life that little bit more enjoyable.

I'm guessing that a lot of the people arguing against this don't have a career, or if so, haven't been working for long.
When you've been in work for a few years, well, then maybe you'll understand why people want to come home and play games, and why they want those games to be fun.
Sorry to sound patronising, but it's pretty much the only reason I can see people arguing against this.
That and internet willy-waving, but those people are playing the wrong game in the first place.
WoW is the place for willy-wavers.

Quoted for Truth! Great post!

Some people forget that this game is a COMPETITIVE Online Roleplaying Game. It's not about who grinds all day and night, it's about who can make the best builds and run them effectively- and most of all, about fun!

frickett · Apr 03, 2007, 12:30 PM // 12:30

I don't really see a problem with it. Who cares if a new character is overpowered in pvE. But if that is the only issue with it, then hey, lets put a restriction that sais that those skills unlocked on other characters become usable on other characters after they become level 20.

dr1zz_one said "For those that want everything handed to them on a platter, thats just too bad."

PVP players have access to all skills unlocked by other characters. I don't see the big deal with having all the monk skills that I earned on my R/Mo available to my newly minted PVE Mo/A. I mean if i minted a PVP Mo/A I would have access.

But no worries, I like guildwars either way.

EternalTempest · Apr 03, 2007, 12:38 PM // 12:38

At first... I would say no to access to unlocked in pve....

That being said, the more my hero's are better then me because they have access to everything I unlocked... kinda wishing I had this access to.

I fine with the system as it is, but I would no object if anet did that. I still end up having to unlock everything the 1st time anyway.

TabascoSauce · Apr 03, 2007, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song from Page 3

-skill trainers accepting quest rewards like Battle Commendations, Luxon Totems, etc.
-more hero points
-return of skill quests
-Discount on unlocked skills This is probably what i would choose.
-No skill point requirement for unlocked skills This is a good idea too.
-Skill trainers in the wild that teach you skills if you beat them
-buying unlocked skills in bulk

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song from Page 6

Therefore, i propose that the skill trainers should no longer sell skills you've unlocked, on basis that it gives advantage to players who grinded to unlock skills.

(joke) I like the earlier Lyra_Song. Can we go back there please?

(/joke)

I wholeheartedly agree with your idea of discounting unlocked skills!

Can we discuss measures that are in the sensible middle ground, as opposed to the extremes of "Yuo suck if yuo dont farm for evarythang so git crackin" and "new players should start the game with all skills unlocked"?

Thx!
TabascoSauce

Akshara · Apr 03, 2007, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

What about the pvp unlock packs??!?! No PvE ppl buy them...

If anet wanted to actually make some money, they would implement this as an incentive to sell those pvp packs....

If the PvP edition packs unlocked the sills for all PvE characters too, I'd most likely buy all three packs. The time saved would be well worth another $120. The cost isn't justifiable however to simply unlock skills for heroes and PvP characters.

Rakeman · Apr 03, 2007, 05:00 PM // 17:00

How about Anet offers a "Premium PvE Upgrade" to the store. For a low price, $10-$20 or so, your PvE characters can use all unlocked skills. If you want to build your characters, then you can do so by not buying the upgrade and save your cash. If you want to save time, chances are you will be willing to dish out a few bucks- time is money, after all. That way, EVERYBODY wins! Of course, they HAVE to have a "Premium PvE Trial Weekend", where all players have it for FREE over the weekend, then they can watch as tons of cash flow in on Monday

Now, about Skill Hunter. Here's some ideas. Note that Anet is planning on making Campaign specific skill hunter titles (like "Tyrian Skill Hunter", all prophecy elites) so these ideas take into account this future change. If the change never happens, adjust them as you see fit:

-Skill Hunter is disabled for people who buy the Premium PvE Upgrade. After all, people who want to save time from unnecessary grind probably don't care too much about most titles

-Skill Hunter works differently for them. Instead of having "Skill Hunter", they will have "Skill Collector" or something like that. Skill Collector has 1 level, so the titles are Tyrian Skill Collector, Canthan Skill Collector, and Elonian Skill Collector (of course, if the Skill Hunter change never happens, there would only be one Skill Collector title as well). Once you unlock ALL skills of that campaign, not just Elite, and ALL core skills, you get the Skill Collector title.
-This is a big change but I think this idea may be the best. Skill Hunter now works differently: You gain a point in Skill Hunter *when you capture an elite skill*. The game would record what skills you captured and what skills you unlocked. Unlocked skills wont count for your skill hunter title, ONLY captured ones. You can capture unlocked skills of course, for title purposes.

Any of those work.

lyra_song · Apr 03, 2007, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ernada

And what suggestion doesnt boil down to those two things?

Suggestions that attempt to fix problems or things in the game that are broken like skills or pvp modes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

How about this Lyra - It is reasonable to expect that certain amounts of game content is achievable by someone playing the game normally (ie going out and questing, doing missions etc). In order to be able to play a decent amount of styles, a benchmark of all primaries +20 secondary skills would be appropriate.

This would cost (130+20*9)*10 = 3100 skill points and 3100 plat (ignoring the price ramp and skill quests) - I don't think that anyone would argue that 3100 plat is within the reach of someone playing normally.

I made 10k with my Assassin by Kaineng Center. I basically got all my money in newbie-land. I just did quests. I would argue that getting the skill points is harder than getting the money.

Besides...from my perspective, the game gives you enough to have fun.

If you really want to experiment with builds and skills, you'd really have to invest your money on the character. And i dont think anyone playing normally cares about that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

(joke) I like the earlier Lyra_Song. Can we go back there please? (/joke)

lyra from page 6 shows how the basis of Mythic's arguement, the basis being that "Skill > Time spent" should be favored, can also be used to create an opposite argument that is just as valid.

The ideas that i really care about are from page 3.

Quote:

-skill trainers accepting quest rewards like Battle Commendations, Luxon Totems, etc.
-more hero points
-return of skill quests
-Discount on unlocked skills This is probably what i would choose.
-No skill point requirement for unlocked skills This is a good idea too.
-Skill trainers in the wild that teach you skills if you beat them
-buying unlocked skills in bulk

nytestalker · Apr 03, 2007, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I guess what i wanna hear is an argument to support the OP that doesn't boil down to "I want ____ " or "I don't want ____ ".

I want access.

I wanted access in 2005 before factions. :/

You want an arguement that doesnt revolve around what I want or dont want?

Anet wants money.

PvP packs are income

PvE players have no reason to buy PvP packs.

This would give them a reason.

Anet would make more money

The game would have more revenue

The additional revenue could be budgetted to add more stuff to the game.

There.

Lets make the game better and get access to stuff we unlock.

How about --

Time spent.

Time spent is more valuable in the PvE world than the PvP world. Why does the pvp player get the short end of the stick ? I play for an hour.

RA - I get 3 unlocks for my account. (or one elite)

PvE - i get a couple unlocks through grinding out money or skill points, or I go cap an elite. (sometimes, I can cap 2 depending on the area and my secondary) I get them for my character, but I also get them for pvp.

Why do I get rewarded MORE for time spent in pve than I do for time spent in pvp?

lyra_song · Apr 03, 2007, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by nytestalker

Anet wants money.
PvP packs are income
PvE players have no reason to buy PvP packs.
This would give them a reason.
Anet would make more money
The game would have more revenue
The additional revenue could be budgetted to add more stuff to the game.

There.
Lets make the game better and get access to stuff we unlock.

I took out your spaces for compression's sake.

H'mmn. While this argument is sound, the question that comes to mind is, why would more money in the short term be more important than keeping the game balanced in the long run?

And also, how does "more stuff" and "having access to unlocked skills with a new pve character" neccessarily make the game better?

Quote:

Time spent.
Time spent is more valuable in the PvE world than the PvP world. Why does the pvp player get the short end of the stick ? I play for an hour.
RA - I get 3 unlocks for my account. (or one elite)
PvE - i get a couple unlocks through grinding out money or skill points, or I go cap an elite. (sometimes, I can cap 2 depending on the area and my secondary) I get them for my character, but I also get them for pvp.
Why do I get rewarded MORE for time spent in pve than I do for time spent in pvp?

Interesting perspective. I'll have to agree, but only with those specific examples and only relating to skill acquisition.

However your example lays out 2 different experiences.

RA - What is the purpose of random arena? While some people do use RA to build up Balthazar Points to unlock skills, for some people, it is faster than PvE.

Take for example, say I have a monk. This monk only has up to Lion's Arch. I need to unlock Rebirth for my account.

Whats the fastest way? Theres several ways to get rebirth. I can do PvE quests in Maguuma jungle. I can get it from ember light. Or i can do PvP and unlock it through that. For me, i'd jump into RA, or AB and have fun. And eventually get the skill I want.

Your PvE example seems to say that getting skills is ONLY a grind. My guild does skill cap outings, where we take a full group and go skill capping/chest farming/kill everything in sight. Its fun, because we joke around and kill stuff and eventually get the skill and go "Who's got the next skill?"

I guess my comment on this is.

Your mileage may vary.

nytestalker · Apr 03, 2007, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

H'mmn. While this argument is sound, the question that comes to mind is, why would more money in the short term be more important than keeping the game balanced in the long run?

You mean. unbalanced like a lvl 3 koss using eviscerate is unbalanced?

Quote:

And also, how does "more stuff" and "having access to unlocked skills with a new pve character" necessarily make the game better?

How does Character progressions = Character acquisition. Are you stronger because you own 1000 skills and I own 100?

Quote:

RA - What is the purpose of random arena? While some people do use RA to build up Balthazar Points to unlock skills, for some people, it is faster than PvE.

Your PvE example seems to say that getting skills is ONLY a grind.

I wasnt comparing the speed. I was comparing general time spent.

I spend time in PvP doing whatever. I get rewards that only count for my account.

I spend time in PvE doing whatever. I get rewards both for pve and for pvp.

Why? Why do I get more for playing pve? Shouldn't I get something from PvP that I can bring to PvE besides stupid titles or gold/silver trim?

Access to unlocked skill is precisly a mechanic that would give ppl a REASON to go RA.

Dont you think more players would PvP if the skill unlocks they earned counted towards their PvE characters?

Wouldnt it make the transition between PvE and PvP smoother?

frickett · Apr 03, 2007, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by nytestalker

Why does the pvp player get the short end of the stick ?

Huh, all the PVE unlocks are already yours for PVP, no waiting.

So if i want a necro with Aura of the lich, Cultist fervor, and jagged bones builds, it has to be either pvp, (about 1.5 minutes) or I have to get my necro to the final missions in all 3 campaigns...(weeks if I work nonstop). To me it doesnt sound like pvp is getting the short end of the stick. However I have been wrong before.

Zexion · Apr 03, 2007, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr1zz one

Maybe part of the reasoning is that a new character with fully unlocked skills might be a little overpowered in those low level areas.

I believe ANet is intelligent enough to make this viable, even with that "issue". Heck, they could simply do it so you only have access to all skills after ascending/beating the final mission of a campaign. See, I just made a good solution to that problem, and I don't even get paid to do it like ANet employees.

_Zexion